Proposal to open source Finder V8 Pro firmware

[veso266]

Hi there I hope this post is not to wierd, but please read it to the end

When I was first looking at a satelite finder (or to be more precise portable satelite tv) I had a few requirements for it
1. It should support the latest standards (DVB-S/S2/S2X), it also should supoort latest codecs (H.265/HEVC, etc)
2. It should allow recording to USB stick
3. It should allow me to change built in satelites (and import them from USB)
4. It should support A/V Out (HDMI is a plus, but Composite is a must)
5. It should support controlling motor (eather through diseqc 1.1 or 1.2 or USALS)
6. It should have Teletext support (If you don't know what Teletext is:

Code: Select all

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletext

)
7. It should tell me all the insight about a signal I am receving as the signal provides (it shuld also allow me to tune the signal as I please (if I want to tune by 1khz, or manualy input the frequency, the device should allow that (even if the frequency is like 950Mhz (yes I know LNB will downconvert it, but if I want to hook something else to satelite port I should be able to input downconverted frequency)
8. It should have updatable software (which means I can get updates somewhere (not that I need to message sellers on ebay for years, to then finaly find who makes the device and after 5years finaly get a software update, after writing to the manufacterer direcly)
9. It should have some sort of a comunity (eather a forum, or a place where people discuss about it, (how to use it, what flaws it has, etc)
10. It should have sensitive and selective tuner
11. BONUS: if its software is open souce
12. BONUS: if it supports external devices over USB (like wifi dongle, external Smart card reader, etc)
13. BONUS: Encrypted channels support + Internet acsess (for Card Sharing servers or browsing internet)

Well, this are wierd requirements I know
So I began the search, now if this would be a standalone device, I would get a Dream Multimedia Dreambox (or any other box that is linux powered like xxx) without thinking, but because I needed a portable device (since where I have my dish, I don't have any electricity and means to bring a big TV), I was very limited
There were finders, and there were receivers

And I needed both in one box

So I searched, I found many different finders, some cheap, some expensive, but no finder
not xxxxxxxxx (didn't support S2X, Teletext is not even mentioned) nor xxx(didn't even decode picture, I don't want to look at bunch of numbers)
Xxxxxx

(I couldn't even buy this one, the onlything I was able to find were knock-offs)
not even xxxxxx (yes it has teletext, but this morons charge for software updates, and there is no changelog so you would not actualy know what you are getting before you pay, also there is no comunity forum, it also doesn't support encrypted channels)

so finder satisfied all my requirements

At the end I always came back to GTMedia Finder V8 Pro because it satisfied almost! (point 10 still needs work) all of my requirements

So this is my story how I found this device after a loot of searching around (yes sometimes, what you wan't doesn't even exist.....)

Now let me tell you why open sourcing the software (maybe start with software for GTMedia Finder V8 Pro) would be extremly good idea and beneficial

1. People could help you develop software (every software has bugs, but more people are working on it, quicker this bugs are fixed)
2. There are a lot of features people would like (if software would be open source, people could add them on their own)
Here is my wishlist:
* Support for more WIFI dongles (I have like 4 wifi dongles based on Atheros AR9271 chipset, and Realtek RTL8188SU chipset I don't want to buy another one just for this device (and one of my Atheros adapters is realy good, it has support for external wifi antena)
I think this finder runs linux (it has youtube, it even has Ethernet MAC address even if no ethernet port, so it probably runs linux), so here are drivers for my Atheros AR9271 dongles: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/tree/ ... /ath/ath9k
* Support for external PC/SC reader throught USB (so I could watch TV with my legal Smartcard)
* Support decoding Teletext Level 2.5 (also known as Hi-Text) (Currently finder only support Teletext Level 1.5 (I can provide mux samples if you need)
* Support HbbTV (What it is: https://www.hbbtv.org/overview/ and since finder has internet acsess, why not)
* Support games like Snake, Tetris, Sudoku, etc (hey finder has a left,right,up,down,keypad why not)
* Support PAL (SAT or regular) (Analog SAT (not sure if this would be possible in hardware, I would assume this software would process incomming signal with DSP, so maybe possible (it would we usefull if going on vacation to brasil, they still have analog satelites there, I could enjoy some analog SAT with this finder (I will carry a big tv and a box on a plane, this finder is perfect for that)
* Support for new encryption systems when they come

As you can see, features I would like to see are very specific to my use case, so why would a company spent their time and effort developing them, if software would be open sourced, the I could add all this myself

There is an open source firmware called OpenPli: https://www.openpli.org/
that runs on many SAT receivers, why couldn't it also run on GTMedia Finder V8 Pro (or any other GTMedia SAT product)

You see if this device would have open source software, many people would buy it just because of that, because open source means a lot of freadom, there are a lot of people working, helping and if you need a specific feature, you can write it yourself

If you are afraid this would mean, that people would buy a generic chinese finder and try to steal your software, this won't work, because if I read corecly this ALI devices have a specific hardware key which is mapped to a software key, so if you try to flash a different software on GTMedia finder or vice versa it won't boot, and I think you can brick your finder, so if people would want to use your software, they have to buy your hardware

I relaly hope engeneers at GTMedia, will read this post to the end, and maybe, just maybe think about open sourcing their software

Thanks for Anwsering and Best Regards

[Hazl]

Everyone has their own preferences, what they want from the device what buy. With this GT media Finder V8 pro, the magic word is "Finder". So such a "device-instrument" should detect virtually everything it can in its field of operation. To be able to do that, what it primarily needs. You wrote it yourself, sensitive and selective input part of the receiving part. We can call it a tuner in one word. if that is not satisfied, everything else falls apart. No software can fix the RF noise of the receiving part as well as the selectivity itself. This is due only to the hardware. And that's why this device cannot be a reliable instrument for finding TV signals. It's a shame that it can't detect signals weaker than 43dBuV, but it should at least 30dBuV, preferably 25dBuV. So, the most important thing for me are the numbers and the measured results. Everything else that you listed, which is important to you, is secondary to me. A portable small TV is not important to me, but it is not bad to have one.

[CAJE]

I am going to explain it to you in a way that you understand, imagine that the range is a glass of beer, the liquid is the useful signal, the foam and the air is the noise, the values ​​that you want to measure It is an empty glass that only has some foam left

[Hazl]

This comparison of yours is irrelevant. Such a device simply has to detect everything, even low-level signals. Let's say you first measure everything with an ordinary dipole. If the signal thus obtained is 25-30dBuV, then with a good 15dB gain antenna, you can raise that signal to 40-45dBuV levels.
Why multimeters can measure very small voltages and currents (uV and uA), and we don't need that. So that we can see if there is any voltage and current or not. Why better such devices than this one can measure those signal levels, but this one can't. Why can I watch programs with a signal strength of 32-33dBuV on my Sony TV, but not on this GT Media V8 pro finder? Well, because it is insensitive. It's a shame that it only works at 43-44dBuV.

[Marantz]

I think he means you want champagne on a beer budget

[CAJE]

This comparison of yours is irrelevant. Such a device simply has to detect everything, even low-level signals. Let's say you first measure everything with an ordinary dipole. If the signal thus obtained is 25-30dBuV, then with a good 15dB gain antenna, you can raise that signal to 40-45dBuV levels.
Why multimeters can measure very small voltages and currents (uV and uA), and we don't need that. So that we can see if there is any voltage and current or not. Why better such devices than this one can measure those signal levels, but this one can't. Why can I watch programs with a signal strength of 32-33dBuV on my Sony TV, but not on this GT Media V8 pro finder? Well, because it is insensitive. It's a shame that it only works at 43-44dBuV.

It seems like you have some confusion regarding the sensitivity of different devices and their ability to detect signals at low levels. The comparison between a Yes sign and a glass of beer was merely an analogy to explain the concept of sensitivity.

To address your questions, it's true that multimeters can measure very small voltages and currents, but their purpose is different from that of a signal finder. A multimeter is used to measure the presence and magnitude of a voltage or current in a circuit, whereas a signal finder is used to locate and measure the strength of a specific type of signal, such as a TV, Satellite or radio signal.

Regarding the signal that reaches the Sony with Distance (km) Theoretical signal (dBμV) Approximate gain Yagi antenna 15 elements (dBi), It tells me that you are 110 km from the repeater if you do not use an amplifier, to receive a good signal the antenna should have a gain of 30 dB, with these data you know that aiming the antenna will be more difficult and for this the V8 Finder Pro will do its functions, check the most important thing that the MER is >23 dB

[CAJE]

I think he means you want champagne on a beer budget

I ask you to please tell them the rules of the group and especially number one

[veso266]

Everyone has their own preferences, what they want from the device what buy. With this GT media Finder V8 pro, the magic word is "Finder". So such a "device-instrument" should detect virtually everything it can in its field of operation. To be able to do that, what it primarily needs. You wrote it yourself, sensitive and selective input part of the receiving part. We can call it a tuner in one word. if that is not satisfied, everything else falls apart. No software can fix the RF noise of the receiving part as well as the selectivity itself. This is due only to the hardware. And that's why this device cannot be a reliable instrument for finding TV signals. It's a shame that it can't detect signals weaker than 43dBuV, but it should at least 30dBuV, preferably 25dBuV. So, the most important thing for me are the numbers and the measured results. Everything else that you listed, which is important to you, is secondary to me. A portable small TV is not important to me, but it is not bad to have one.

I know, but right now there is nothing we can do about it, and even if they can magicly fix the not selective and sensitive tuner in hardware, I will still need to open my wallet again to benefit this....

your requirements can be satisfied with an Amiko, mine it seams cannot even be satisfied with a 1000€ MegaSat HD7..


I just try to get the most out of everything, (even if it lacks in some parts), so thats why I said to open source the firmware, because this device could do so much more (yes it might not be a good finder, but it can be a good portable television)

[veso266]

I think he means you want champagne on a beer budget

I ask you to please tell them the rules of the group and especially number one

What about my request?
Is it that bad?

And if it is bad, why? What would you loose, you would only gain things, there are people like my that would buy this device, because of this very reason (open sourced firmware)

Also I remembered that adding BISS-CA:

Code: Select all

https://tech.ebu.ch/publications/tech3292s1

would also be very usefull

And if firmware would be open sourced, comunity could help

[Hazl]

So, I'll say it again. Every "finder" must, I repeat, must detect and measure even the weakest signals, signals far below the minimum for quality reception, it simply must. I see that I did not get an answer to a simple question. I repeat again: Why can I watch a TV program on my Sony TV with a signal strength of 41-43dBuV, and a MER of 18-20dB, and the famous GTMedia V8 Finder Pro measures stupid results. From 60-80dBuV, MER 0. All other instruments, finders I have measure this without any problems. So only this GT media is valid, and everything else is invalid, not even the TV. Come on, come to your senses and get down on the ground. That garbage from findera is worth nothing. Remove from his name "Finder" because it is not. It is a simple portable small TV.

[CAJE]

The problem is that you do not want to understand that these signals are not acceptable, fix your installation and you will see that the measurements you will obtain will be good
You should do a study of the installation or call a professional to solve it for you, blaming a finder will not solve that bad installation

[Hazl]

There he is again? How many times do I have to write that "Finder" has to detect everything, everything it can, so also and weak signals, but this one obviously can't, and that's is a problem. Where is the answer to my question. Why does my TV and other finders can watch DVB-T/T2 programs without problems, but only this V8 finderr pro can't. So, it is a deliberate reduction of signal strength with attenuators. That limit is 42-43dBuV. Otherwise, my Sony TV can reproduce signals of 34dBuV and MER 12dB without problems. GT Media V8 finder pro can only dream of that, and a "finder" must be more sensitive and selective than a TV. That's why this is a semi-finished toy. For a slightly more serious measurement, it must be bypassed in a large arc. End of story.

[CAJE]

There he is again? How many times do I have to write that "Finder" has to detect everything, everything it can, so also and weak signals, but this one obviously can't, and that's is a problem. Where is the answer to my question. Why does my TV and other finders can watch DVB-T/T2 programs without problems, but only this V8 finderr pro can't. So, it is a deliberate reduction of signal strength with attenuators. That limit is 42-43dBuV. Otherwise, my Sony TV can reproduce signals of 34dBuV and MER 12dB without problems. GT Media V8 finder pro can only dream of that, and a "finder" must be more sensitive and selective than a TV. That's why this is a semi-finished toy. For a slightly more serious measurement, it must be bypassed in a large arc. End of story.

I understand that you are frustrated with the performance of your finder and believe that it should be able to detect weak signals similar to your TV and other finders. However, it's important to consider a few factors before concluding that the finder is the sole cause of the problem.

Firstly, it's worth noting that different devices can have varying levels of sensitivity and performance. While your Sony TV and other finders may be able to handle signals at 34dBuV with an MER of 12dB, it doesn't necessarily mean that the GT Media V8 finder pro should be able to do the same. Each device is designed with different specifications and capabilities, and there may be trade-offs in terms of size, cost, and performance.

Secondly, it's crucial to consider the installation and setup of your TV and finder. A poor installation, such as incorrect antenna placement, improper cabling, or signal interference, can significantly impact the quality and strength of the signal received. Even a high-quality finder may struggle to detect weak signals if the installation is not optimized.

In cases where you have compared multiple devices and found discrepancies in signal detection, it's essential to eliminate other potential factors that could affect the performance. This includes checking the antenna, cables, connectors, and ensuring that there are no sources of interference nearby.

If you have exhausted all troubleshooting steps and are still experiencing issues with the finder, it might be worth reaching out to the manufacturer or seeking advice from experts in the field. They may be able to provide further guidance or recommend alternative solutions that better meet your needs.

Remember that it's important to approach the situation with an open mind and consider multiple factors that could contribute to the issue. Electronic devices can have limitations, and a combination of factors, including the device itself, installation, and environmental conditions, can affect the overall performance.

[Hazl]

Same again. It's not worth explaining anything to you anymore. As far as I can see, you finally admitted that GTMedio V8 finder pro is insensitive and non-selective. Otherwise, TV sets are known for not having very sensitive tuners, at least for most of them. The two STB receivers I have are even more sensitive than the TV.
How is it not clear to you that if a device has the word "Finder" in its name, it should also be an instrument. And this kind of instrument must not have any limitations. It must, I repeat, it must be able to measure extremely weak signals as well as extremely strong signals and as such display their correct values, not nonsense. That's why you shouldn't have put the word "Finder" in the name of this device at all. But it was put in place for the reason of attracting as many naive customers as possible, the smaller ones, but also the more demanding ones, including myself. I have 30 years of experience in this field. Calling the experts is ridiculous. Well, I am that expert, especially on common antenna systems, CAS. The vast majority on this forum know what I'm writing about, and you persistently try to somehow save the image of the company and this semi-finished product. It is a simple portable small insensitive TV that can measure something, but who knows what.

[CAJE]

Instead of engaging in confrontational or accusatory language, it would be more productive to provide accurate information and clarify any misunderstandings. You can explain that professional standards for signal levels and MER (Modulation Error Ratio) may vary depending on specific circumstances, such as the region, equipment, and signal conditions.

You can emphasize that the GTMedio V8 Finder Pro is designed to meet the needs of a wide range of users, including professionals and hobbyists alike. It's always important to consider the intended purpose and specifications of a device when evaluating its performance.

If continues to insist on their claims without providing substantial evidence or valid arguments, it may be best to redirect the conversation to a more constructive topic or seek advice from other professionals in the field who can provide additional perspectives.

[Hazl]

I repeat again. When a device like this has the word "Finder" in its name, you know what it means. Detect absolutely all marginally weak and strong signals, not just from 43dBuV.
There are no compromises and speeches for amateurs, hobbyists and advanced experts. It was supposed to be a measuring instrument for detecting DVB-S/S2/T/T2/C signals from min. 15 to at least 100dBuV, regardless of all other values. There are 5G base stations with antennas near me and the signal strength exceeds 95dBuV. Unlike others, this "Finder" cannot measure them.
At the end and in the specifications it says:
Signal Input Level: ‐65 to‐25 dBm ---> 43,75dBuV to 83,75dBuV
That's all about sensitivity and measuring range. And if it was "Finder", Input (power) Level must be min. 15dBuV to 100dBuV. In other words, there is no way to ever increase the sensitivity of the tuner and this device. Hey, 43dBuV the lowest measurable signal strength. How is that not embarrassing for you?
For example The xxxxxx measures signal levels from -10dBm to -100dBm (8,75dBuV to 98,75dBuV), for terrestrial frequencies. All the others I have are similar.